Mennonite World Review

Comments

• Hoover said, "If we were able to meet with Palestinians, we would risk going into the war zone in order to have that conversation."

  I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he is either merely ignorant or naive and not willfully deceptive. There are many Palestinians--including Palestinian Christians--living in both the state of Israel and throughout Jerusalem and the West Bank that his group could have easily met without going into Gaza's "war zone", and where the doors are always very open. (It's also important to mention that it is the state of Israel that restricts entry into Gaza--not the Palestinians.)

  The fact that his group did not intentionally seek conversations with the Palestinian community--especially the churches--speaks clearly of this group's narrow focus.

  Other Anabaptist groups who are accused of only seeing "one side" of the conflict often very intentionally meet with both Jewish Israelis of various beliefs as well as with Palestinians. Neither community is monolithic, as Hoover's group would have learned if they had actually talked to Palestinians rather than just praying to be willing. Maybe next trip.

  - George Nassar (dec 18 at 4:00 a.m.)

• I am thankful for this group of people who went to Israel to show support for Israel, God’s chosen people as stated in God’s everlasting covenant with Abraham. This small nation desiring peace with its neighbors but instead experiencing frequent rocket attacks on its citizens. Israel made the mistake of turning Gaza over to the Palestinians under world pressure in a gesture of peace and good will. What a sad mistake. Evil appeased is never satisfied

  - Dale Welty (dec 18 at 1:18 p.m.)

• I am always mystified by self-professed Christians who refer to Israelis -- or even adherents of modern-day Judaism -- as "God's chosen people." If that be the case, folks, aren't you in the wrong place?
  

  I believe instead that God's covenantal promises have been and are being kept and fulfilled among the faithful remnant of the Jewish people, now expanded to include those who were called Gentiles, who have accepted Jesus as Messiah and who recognize God's kingship based on Jesus' admonitions. Sometimes called the church. Definitely a remnant.
  

  "Israel, I know ye not."

  - Bruce Leichty (dec 18 at 1:44 p.m.)

• I would be so bold as to suggest that there has never been a human soul on this earth who was not one of God's chosen people. Jews, Gentiles. Those who accept Jesus as messiah, those who don't accept Jesus as messiah. Those who never heard of Jesus. Those who have no use for religion at all. As one of our esteemed Anabaptist foreparents, Hans Denck, put it, God's love is so vast and far-reaching that "even the demons will be saved in the end." Good news!

  - Charlie Kraybill, Bronx, NYC (dec 20 at 4:26 p.m.)

• Isaiah 41 (8) But thou Israel are my servant, Jacob whom i have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. (9) Thou whom i have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee and not cast thee away. (10) Fear not for I am with thee: Be not dismayed for i am thy God.

  Jonas Stoltzfus

  - Jonas (dec 21 at 2:03 p.m.)

• Jonas, are you implying that anyone gets to attach the label of Israel to themselves to claim God's blessing? Isn't there instead some discernment involved, in determining who is the true Israel? Or shouldn't there be? What gives these politicians and modern-day rabbis the authority to claim the name Israel, any more than the Pharisees or Sadducees of Jesus' day, or any more than Sam Mullet gets to claim the name Amish?
  

  Romans 9:25 -- As he says in Hosea, I will call them my people' who are not my people, and I will call hermy loved one' who is not my loved one.
  

  Luke 3:8 -- For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

  John 14:21 -- He who has my commandments and keeps them is he who loves me, and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.

  Perhaps this also addresses Charlie's facile proposition, which seems to confuse God's universalist compassion with the process by which one identifies with God and honors God as revealed in Jesus of Nazareth and -- thereby -- becomes one of God's chosen people. This is all too particularistic for Charlie, but Charlie, sn't it a bit too bold, even for the Bronx, to claim the Madoff brothers and other two-legged predators as among God's chosen? Bad news!
  

  - Bruce Leichty (dec 21 at 11:19 p.m.)

• God does not have favorites. The notion that there is a subset of humanity that God has "chosen" over and against the others -- this idea is a human construct, developed by an ancient people, and set down in their written propaganda, in an effort to mold their cultural identity. Quoting from their propaganda to prove something about God is not persuasive, despite the fact that the texts have been elevated by some to the status of "divinely inspired scripture." For those of us (the majority of humanity) who stand outside the bubble of institutional Judeo-Christian religion, arguments based on "scripture" carry no weight. We can only look at narrow assertions of divine chosen-ness as the insecure rantings of the pre-modern mind.

  - Charlie Kraybill, Bronx, NYC (dec 22 at 10:00 a.m.)

• This is a rich engage, Charlie and Bruce. Thank you.

  Charlie, your words remind me of what the story of Christmas is trying to tell us. Bruce, your words remind me that not all responses to this gift of life honor the One who is its source.

  - Berry Friesen (dec 22 at 10:20 a.m.)

• God has not forsaken Israel and they remain his chosen people as stated in Romans 11. Later in that chapter, Salvation to the Gentiles is available through the atoning work of Jesus’ death and resurrection, and Gentile believers are grafted into the Family of God. Jesus said, he came unto his own but as many as received him to them he gave power to become sons of God. The later part of chapter 11 also speaks to the restoration of Israel, God’s chosen people. Then in Revelation 7, we read of the 12 tribes of the Children of Israel. In short, God keeps his everlasting promise to Abraham. The conditional Mosaic covenant should not be confused with the unconditional Abrahamic covenant.

  It is no accident that in May, 1948 by action of the UN, Israel again became a sovereign nation dwelling on a portion of the land God deeded to them in promise 1 of his three everlasting covenant promises to Abraham of land, descendants and blessing to all people (Gen 12:1-3.

  Regarding Abrahamic covenant promise no. 3, there are about 1.2 billion Arabs in the world which is about 17% of the world population. There are about 14 million Jews or .2% of the global population. Now look at who has the Nobel prizes: Literature: Arabs 1, Jews 10, Peace: Arabs 4, Jews 8, Physics: Arabs 0, Jews 53, Economics: Arabs 0, Jews 13, Medicine: Arabs 2, Jews 43, Totals: Arabs, 8, Jews 127. This is over whelming evidence that all three of God’s accurate prophecy promises.

  - Dale Welty (dec 22 at 6:38 p.m.)

• This is good, Dale. In Romans 9, 10, and 11 Paul expounds on this whole picture. Romans 11; 28 makes a part of this very clear. As concerning the gospel they (Israel/Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, (chosen) they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11; 25 and 26 also give us clarity in this mystery. Blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Isreal shall be saved. In verse 20 we are called not to be high minded (proud) about the part of being grafted in, because if God did not spare the natural branches that we should take heed lest he also spare not thee. I believe Replacement theology has largely infected churches like a demonic spirit and has its strength within the spirit of pride.

  - Jonas Stoltzfus (dec 22 at 10:39 p.m.)

• What the book of Romans says really doesn't matter. The words of Paul do not equal the words of God. Paul was, by his own admission, a duplicitous character. He would say one thing to a particular audience because it's what they wanted to hear, then say a different thing to another audience in order to accommodate them. Not very christian of him. He had the gall to preach of a God who deceives people so they'll believe lies and therefore be condemned. (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12) I don't know about you, but I don't think God ever behaves that way. So Paul was definitely not speaking on God's behalf in that instance. In 2 Corinthians 11:23, Paul inadvertently gave us a window into his mental state when he said: "I know I talk like a madman." That's one quote of his that I take at face value. We would do well to take Paul down from his pedestal, and stop considering the contents of his personal correspondence to be on the same level as the authentic sayings of Jesus.

  - Charlie Kraybill, Bronx, NYC (dec 22 at 11:13 p.m.)

• Not so fast there, Charlie. You like Denck when he agrees with your theology (based on what -- his charitable view toward demons?), and you like Jesus better than Paul (based on what? -- his expulsion of demons?), but you're not even going to listen to the New Testament's own voices (yes, that's an acknowledgement of polygenesis not monogenesis) speaking out against the mistaken characterization of "Chosenness" shared by both Zionists and -- apparently -- the modern metro Kraybills? And the Israel-dazzled Mennonites who strain at gnats and swallow camels?
  

  Those are the same voices that allow me to agree both with you that God does not have favorites, and that God has not broken any promises to Israel, by the way. (We used to refer to this promise as a "covenant," some still may, and any good lawyer can tell you that a covenant contains promises made by two parties, not just One.)
  

  You may have missed it, but I was citing Scripture both for the benefit of Jonas, a brother who is obviously leaning on Scripture, and for Charlie, a brother who is obviously looking for ideas that transcend Scripture. I was suggesting consideration of the idea found in the Gospel of John about the Transcendent-Human relationship, as distinct from a more narrow view of "chosenness," not asking you to accept it on face value or based on the canonization given to it by the Church -- although it was uttered by Jesus, one of the fellows you say you like.

  As for my response not honoring "the One" who gave us "the gift of [Life]," you may have to be a bit more explicit with me, Berry, I'm just a plodding Hoosier who always thought that telling the truth was an honorable thing to do, and that those willing to take public issue with me were probably thick-skinned enough to take their serving of plain-spokenness without too much whipped cream. Same goes for a "rich engage," since I didn't come from a tradition where we married for money or used verbs as nouns or, for that matter, called something rich in one breath and bankrupt in the next.
  

  - Bruce Leichty (dec 23 at 3:34 a.m.)

• Bruce, I meant to say that I found your and Charlie's exchange to be rich, but I wrote "engage" instead. My bad.

  And no, I did not intend to say that your response did not honor the One who is the source of life. What I attempted to do was agree with you that we mortals are fully capable of separating ourselves from the source of life, as the Madoff brothers have by their fraud and deceit.
  

  So let me try again. Charlie is right to emphasize the inclusiveness of the biblical God's "choosing". God in Jesus of Nazareth is embracing each and every one of us, calling us to his way.
  

  And you are right to emphasize the particularity of that way. "God" may be whatever or whomever people fancy but the God in whom Christians put their trust is the one revealed to us in Jesus.

  When discussions such as this are framed by the assumption of human immortality (and that is usually the case), your and Charlie's positions end up appearing to be mutually exclusive. I don't share that assumption, and thus find what each of you is saying to be important.
  

  - Berry Friesen (dec 23 at 2:12 p.m.)

• Thanks for clearing that up, Berry. Sometimes there IS something lost in the translation when we rely exclusively on these keyboards.
  

  - Bruce Leichty (dec 23 at 5:14 p.m.)

• "It is strange that no one has ever been persecuted by the church for believing that God is bad, while millions have been destroyed for thinking God good. The orthodox church will never forgive the universalist for saying 'God will at last save all.' Meanwhile, it has always been considered one of the highest evidences of true and undefiled religion that all men, women and children deserve eternal damnation." ~Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899)

  "It's a lie -- any talk of God that does not comfort you." ~Meister Eckhart (c.1260-c.1327)

  "I have put my truth in your innermost mind, and I have written it in your heart. No longer does a person need to teach his sister or brother about God. For all of you know Me, from the most ignorant to the most learned, from the poorest to the most powerful." ~Jeremiah 31:33-34

  "Be merciful and compassionate, in imitation of your Father's limitless and universal mercy and compassion." ~Jesus (Luke 6:36)

  - Charlie Kraybill, Bronx, NYC (dec 23 at 9:00 p.m.)

• In Genesis 16:7-16, pre-incarnate Christ appears to Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness and reveals to her she will be the mother of many descendants. You will bear a son and will call him Ishmael. He will be a wild man and his descendants will cause a lot of trouble in the world.

  The Jews are not promoting brain washing their children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths to non-Jews

  The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics or blow themselves up in German restaurants.

  There is not a single Jew that has destroyed a church.

  There is not a single Jew that protests by killing people.

  The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.

  If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.

  - Dale Welty (dec 23 at 11:14 p.m.)

• Dale, at the risk of getting too far afield here, there are so many misstatements in your last post that I hardly know where to begin. Perhaps I can recommend some initial reading at the site of www.roitov.com. Mr. Tov is a former Israeli army officer and now peace-loving Christian who sought and obtained political asylum in Bolivia based on his belief that the Mossad was hunting him down. While I do not share all the details of his self-perception or views, he would be able to disabuse you of many of the false notions that you and many other Christians hold about Israel and "the Jews." If you had read his book The Cross of Bethlehem, for example, you would know about his involvement in the siege of the Church of the Nativity, perhaps a timely topic for Christians to study at this time of year. Maybe a church was not "destroyed" in that instance, but there are plenty of ways to destroy and attack Christianity without destroying edifices.
  

  No apologist for Arab-instigated violence I, but you have drunk too deeply -- without questioning -- of the fount available to you in middle America that is dominated by the predisposed media in this country. Maybe you would also like to familiarize yourself with the views of the dissenters, many of whom are not satisfied with the myth that 19 Muslim hijackers brought down all three (3) WTC buildings in NYC on 9/11/2011, among whom are some who are absolutely convinced -- with sound logic -- that Israeli actors played a leading role in the events of that day. You wouldn't expect to read that in the New York Times, would you? Read Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, or Chris Bollyn's Solving 9-11, and see if you are still so sure of your wholesale adoption of the "Arab hijacker" perpetrator story or your glowing portrayal of Israel (you say "the Jews").
  

  I am personally involved in representing a 9/11 widow whose interest in getting at the truth of 9/11 has been stymied by Israeli-sympathizer judge Hellerstein in New York; see the website of her supporters at www.marianilawsuit.com (not my work). This movement is scarcely allowed to be mentioned in the pages of MWR, certainly not in any news report, and Mennonites in general are prevented from knowing about my involvement in this case, whereas those embarked on a fool's errand of superficial reconciliation in Israel are glorified: like so many liberal Mennonites, these seek reconciliation without truth. I don't know about you, but when I find out that something or someone is suppressed (like Anabaptism was, for instance), I begin to feel the burden of proof already shifting. Why suppress something if it is not the unsettling or unpleasant truth?
  

  And we could go on and on, if space permitted, to discuss brainwashing, extrajudicial killing and the many other subtle ways in which Israel implements its policies. Don't forget, the best oppressor is the one who can conduct its oppression silently, so that the only violence that appears is the violence of the victim.
  

  - Bruce Leichty (dec 24 at 3:54 a.m.)

• Bruce, a new study reported in the Sunday edition of the British Telegraph newspaper warns that the most dangerous threat to Christians around the world are....Jews, Tea Party, Republicans, militant Islamists, Boy Scouts, Rednecks, Capitalists, NRA or Ku Klux Klan?

  - Dale Welty (dec 24 at 7:31 p.m.)

• "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do more." (Luke 12:4)
  

  - Bruce Leichty (dec 26 at 1:45 a.m.)

• I am going to ignore the pointless squabbling and make three comments: 1) Judaism generally takes a dim view of any apology or forgiveness after the fact. No one can apologize for the sins of another. Thus a 60-year-old apology will be thought perplexing. From the tone of the article, this apology likely springs less from any concern for Jews, but more as a means to rid themselves of guilt from a newly discovered dark chapter of history. The people in Israel probably realize this. 2) During the past year there has been more or less continual coverage in MWR of the difficulties in the West Bank (walls, checkpoints, soldiers), but I don’t remember even the slightest acknowledgement of the 10,000 rocket, mortar, and missile attacks that have come into Israel in the past decade. It is likely that Israel knows this quite well, and to Jews, the Mennonites’ pretension of being a serious player on the world stage, a broker of peace, looks quite hollow, as they can’t muster the strength to even acknowledge even the simplest of facts. 3) Jews already have enough problems with American Christians who “love” Jews, but only as a target of conversion so that they will not go to hell. Thus the account on the third page of the article of two conversions, which seems wholly unrelated to the WWII participation, further sinks the credibility of the Mennonites. They come over to Israel, offer an dubious apology, and then brag about taking two more people away from the Jewish faith!
  

  - R.E. (dec 26 at 3:20 p.m.)

Comment on the article Delegation returns to Israel

Please keep comments civil. MWR editors reserve the right to remove any comment. When posting a comment, you agree to the MWR Comments Policy. Name and comment will be posted; commenters are strongly encouraged to give their full name. Email address is for follow-up only and will not be made public.