Nov. 14, 2011 issue
MC USA responds to appeal from Palestinians
By Annette Brill Bergstresser Mennonite Church USAPage:
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ELKHART, Ind. — In December 2009, after years of prayer, struggle and anguish, Palestinian Christian leaders spoke with one voice to the global body of Christ in an 11-page appeal, “Kairos Palestine: A Moment of Truth.”
They hoped the piece would be welcomed and find support, as was the 1985 South Africa Kairos document, which became a tool in the struggle against oppression and occupation in that region.
“Our word is a cry of hope, with love, prayer and faith in God,” wrote the 15 Palestinian church leaders. “We address it first of all to ourselves and then to all the churches and Christians in the world, asking them to stand against injustice and apartheid, urging them to work for a just peace in our region, calling on them to revisit theologies that justify crimes perpetrated against our people and the dispossession of the land.”
In October, Mennonite Church USA leaders responded to the Palestinian Christians’ appeal, committing to expand opportunities for Mennonite leaders to visit Palestine and learn firsthand about the suffering there.
They also wrote a letter to members of MC USA, asking them to read and discuss the Kairos document, to study Scripture together on the matter and to consider how their financial lives may be enmeshed in the occupation of Israel.
The response, sent by MC USA executive director Ervin Stutzman in consultation with the Executive Board, acknowledges the suffering described in the Palestinians’ letter and their persistence in clinging to hope and love.
“We are humbled and grateful for the way, even in your situation, you trust in the power of love as modeled and inspired by Jesus Christ,” Stutzman writes. “We are deeply moved by your testimony that even in the midst of cruel circumstances, you bear the strength of love rather than that of revenge. We are inspired by your continued vision that the only way forward is for Palestinians and Israelis to see the face of God in each other.”
In his letter to MC USA members, Stutzman notes that across the church, people’s perspectives and commitments related to Israel and Palestine vary greatly.
For more than 65 years, Mennonites have lived, studied and ministered in Israel and Palestine, forming deep friendships and bonds of faith with brothers and sisters there.
People representing a range of opinions about the conflict and Mennonite responses to it have been in conversation with MC USA leaders and were consulted as the response was drafted.
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Comments
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(Following is the text of the MC USA letter to Palestinian Christians who in a multi-page letter distributed in December 2009, "called out to our Christian brothers and sisters in the churches around the world" asking for help.
The Palestinian letter rests its appeal for help in biblical texts. It states that "the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land is a sin against God and humanity" and "that any theology, seemingly based in the Bible or on faith or on history, that legitimizes the occupation is far from Christian teaching."
The letter calls on the churches of the world to join Palestinian christians in repentence. Specifically, the letter asks churches "to revisit fundamentalist theological positions that support certain unjust political options with regard to the Palestinian people." It also asks "our sister Churches not to offer a theological cover-up for the injustice we suffer, for the sin of the occupation imposed upon us. Our question to our brothers and sisters in the Churches today is: are you able to help us get our freedom back, for this is the only way you can help the two peoples attain justice, peace, security and love?"
The full text is available on the web at http://www.kairospalestine.ps
I may be wrong, but I expect the following letter from MC USA will disappoint our borthers and sisters in Palestine because it fails to respond to or even acknowledge the heart of their appeal. What do you think?)
October 5, 2011
Dear sisters and brothers in Christ in Palestine,
We in Mennonite Church USA have received your statement “Kairos Palestine: A Moment of Truth.” Though it has been nearly two years since you made this appeal the urgency of your situation remains and we feel compelled to respond even at this late date.
For more than sixty-five years, Mennonites have lived, studied and ministered in Palestine and Israel. Some of us have developed deep friendships and bonds of faith with brothers and sisters there. Our faith has been challenged and nurtured by you.
We open our hearts when we again hear of the suffering you experience in an occupied land as homes are taken from you, families and communities are separated by walls and checkpoints, and countless large and small indignities and humiliations are visited upon you each day.
We are challenged and inspired by the way you cling to hope and love, even in a situation you describe as a dead-end tragedy with no room for positive expectation. We are moved by the way you maintain hope because it comes from God. We are humbled and grateful for the way, even in your situation, you trust in the power of love as modeled and inspired by Jesus Christ. We are eeply moved by your testimony that even in the midst of cruel circumstances, you bear the strength of love rather than that of revenge. We are inspired by your continued vision that the only way forward is for Palestinians and Israelis to see the face of God in each other.
We hear in your call the appeal of Christ to us. Therefore, we welcome your invitation to come and see your reality. We commit ourselves to promote and expand opportunities for our leaders and members to visit you and learn firsthand about your suffering. We pray God will continue to open our ears and soften our hearts.
We also seek to study scripture together within our own church and with you, that we may be released from the grip of unjust ideology and may grasp more fully what God desires for your part of the world and for all of us. Further, we will continue to wrestle with the way our lives are enmeshed in the policies and implementation of occupation through our economic practices and seek to turn from them.
In the Kairos document, you again remind us that the way of the cross binds together great love for every person and courageous resistance to injustice and sin. We pray that as we journey together we will grow in our faithfulness to the one who leads the way and whom we proclaim as Lord and Savior.
In the peace of Christ, Ervin Stutzman Executive Director, Mennonite Church USA
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To Ervin Stutzman and MC USA Leaders
The Bible makes if very clear that God permanently deeded the land to his chosen people, currently known as Israel and more as recorded in Genesis 12:1-3. It is no accident that in 1948, Israel again became a nation. God orchestrated it all. God is not slack concerning his promises.
The Abrahamic Covenant was an everlasting covenant of promise made by God to Abraham. It consisted of I, The promise of land for Abraham and his descendents. (Genesis 12:1). II, The promise of descendants to dwell in the land. (Genesis 12:2). III, The promise of blessing and redemption to bless Abraham and the families of the earth through him. (Genesis 12:3). This everlasting covenant was God to Abraham. It was a promise of (1land, (2seed and (3blessing. There were no ifs, buts or howevers in that Covenant. It was not conditional nor was there an expiration date.
The letter talks about Palestinian Christians. Do they embrace the teachings of the Bible from Genesis to Revelations or do they follow the teachings in the Koran? They cannot be considered Christians unless they embrace the teachings of the Holy Bible and are born again, accepting God's plan of salvation through the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross as cleansing their hearts from sin.
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Dale, the nation that was created in Palestine in 1948 is a secular country called "Israel." It is not the same as the Israel of the Bible, which was a theocracy. Therefore, whatever divine promises you believe apply to biblical Israel do not apply to today's secular Israel. A theocratic state of Israel (if there is to be one) still lies in the future.
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Well put Charlie! More people need to understand that difference!
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Dale, the full text of the letter from Palestinaian churches is available at http://www.kairospalestine.ps I think you will be edified by their strong witness for Jesus Christ.
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"Dale, the nation that was created in Palestine in 1948 is a secular country"
Much like America, though don't let the republicans hear about it, as they have their politics mixed with their religion, (like progressive Chrisitians which includes me to some extent....mmmmm..... maybe Israel and America are theocracies whether conservatives or democrats hold power? What does that make the Democrats.... a party without quidance except from their own wisdom and values. Religion is based on values. Politics as a religion with the ritual of a voting public, (for those who believe in voting ... which makes it a belief system, which in turn makes democracy a religion - hence a theocracy?). Everything that happens in the life of the State is politics, and then there is the "Politcs of Jesus", therefore any State is a theocracy. Confused yet?
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Dale, in your last paragraph you ask a good solid question. You deserve a good solid answer.
The answer is, "Yes, they probably embrace the teachings of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation" more than the majority of "Christians" in the USA. They absolutely do not "embrace the teachings of the Koran". They are followers of Jesus Christ. A year ago in May we visited 3 churches composed mostly if not entirely of Palestinians-- 2 in Israel, and one in Palestine. We talked extensively with the attenders at 2 of the churches and with followers of Christ throughout the two weeks. They are born again as much as any followers of Christ in the USA. "They accept God's plan of salvation through the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross as cleansing their hearts from sin."
They know that you won't believe them. That is one reason why they invite you to visit them. Until you do, do you have integrity in further comment about their salvation? However, who set us up as judge? Not every "Christian" in the USA will fit your category. Should you demand more of them than of us?
I think the letter of Oct. 5, 2011 is extremely well written, biblical, and considerate with compassion.
dbf, The letter is a start. Whether it addresses or acknowledges the heart of their appeal, I have not studied it in order to give a specific answer. Part of their appeal is to "Come and see". That is the kind of invitation Jesus gave. How many readers are willing to accept their invitation? Is that evidence of our sincerity and solidarity with them. There is a group going this summer. You could join that group. If you want a contact, I can give one.
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Israel began as a theocracy governed directly by God through the Judges. They then wanted a King like the heathen neighboring countries. After the anointing of Saul as King, Israel had a monarch form of government. Israel was led into captivity and eventually lost possession of their land. Their disobedience did not void the deed on all the land God promised to Abraham. Now the nation of Israel, reestablished on a portion of their God deeded land, has a democratic form of government. They are still God’s chosen people with what ever their form of government. Israel can be considered a secular nation, however that does not change God’s relationship with his people.
The government of Israel has an obligation to protect it’s citizens against those who work for its destruction. I choose to express words of blessing on the nation of Israel and not words of criticism.
There is nothing Christian in the following statement from the Palestinian letter. The Palestinian letter rests its appeal for help in biblical texts. It states that "the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land is a sin against God and humanity" and "that any theology, seemingly based in the Bible or on faith or on history, that legitimizes the occupation is far from Christian teaching."
This letter is nothing more than an attempt for Israel to give up land that God deeded to them. They gave up the Gaza strip, and got misery for their efforts. The Palestinians had this land before the Six Day 67 War and then lost it. The land that Israel currently occupies is 1/19 the size of the state of California.
Here is what the Bible says in Genesis 15:18-21 regarding the land permanently deeded by God to Israel:18 "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. I refer doubters to read Joshua 1 for additional information. For those who understand and believe God’s Word, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand the clear teaching of God’s Word, no explanation is possible.
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Les, I largely agree with your assessment of the Stutzman letter.
I just find it unfortunate (and puzzling) Stutzman did not include some reference in the letter to the four suggestions he has made to us (see the end of the MWR article). The suggestions are specific and directly responsive to concerns raised by the Palestinian Christians. Including them in the letter would have been an encouragement to borthers and sisters who face very discouraging circumstances every day.
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Dale, you say the Jews are still God's chosen people. I beg to disagree. I believe that I, too, am God's chosen people. I even believe (heaven help us) that you, Dale, are God's chosen people. Of course one may infer from this that I believe every human being who has ever lived is God's chosen people. Does God discriminate? I think not. God regards you and me and the Jews all the same.
Your belief that the Jews are specially chosen by God is somewhat refuted by your belief that only those who accept Jesus will make it to the Promised Land in the afterlife. Is that a correct understanding of your position? If so, then it would put 99.9% of all Jews who've ever lived in hell.
Can that truly be the eternal fate of the overwhelming majority of God's chosen people? I have a hard time buying such a proposition. God is a lover, not a hater.
I look forward to your explanation of this contradiction in your belief system. Thank you in advance.
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Dale, bibically the following peoples are descendents (or the "seed") of Abraham: Jews, Arabs (Biblically they are the descendents of Ishmael), and Christians. Genesis 15 only says that Abram/Abraham's "seed" will get the land, but it never says specifically that the Israelites alone get the land.
I am shocked and appalled that you have absolutely no sympathy for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are Palestinians and that you go out of your way to deny them any voice or authenticity of followers of Jesus.
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As a father, if my children misbehave in public, I discipline them. If after they become adults, one is incarcerated for a crime, that adult is still my child. If, in my presence, the children of someone else misbehave, it is not my responsibility to discipline another person’s children. Therefore, this constant criticism of God’s chosen people by the self-righteous religious left is inappropriate.
Bible believing Christians in all nations should support the nation of Israel. These people in Israel or elsewhere are very special to God. We read in Deuteronomy 7:6-8 these words: "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt."
God's eternal purpose is to bless the world through Israel (Genesis 12:3). Already He has done so in measure, for "salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22), but the fullness of future blessing is indicated in the wondrous promise of Isaiah 27:6: "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit."
Jerusalem is located in Israel, a nation that, in area, is five tenth of one percent of the seven nearby Arab countries. It is interesting that John, The Revelator, in his vision, provided by God did not see a new Tokyo, new Baghdad, new Cairo, new Tehran, new New York City, new Paris, new London, new Moscow or new Bejing. Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
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None of that addresses a single question or issue brought to you by myself, Charlie, BDF, or Les.
And on what grounds is critique of Israel inappropriate? Just look at all the prophets who critiqued Israel and Judah.
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The prophets, on behalf of God, were warning the Israelites about their sinful life styles, therefore appropriate.
The Bible is clear, the descendents of Isaac, and not Ishmael, are the descendents of promise as stated in the following verses in Gen 16. 10And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. Ishmael is indeed a descendent of Abraham but he and his descendents are not God’s chosen people of promise. The pre-incarnate Christ is speaking to Hagar in the above verses.
I have given ample scripture in support of my comments, however I don’t see any scripture by those critical of my comments or in support of their comments.
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Not on why we should not critique Israel and not on how the modern nation state is the same as the biblial Israel.
Further, are you saying that regardless of the faith of the person, if they are a Palestinian they are our enemy, even if they proclaim Christ as Lord and God?
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Justin, in the past, there was more freedom of travel. There were Palestinian suicide bombers who killed people and destroyed property resulting in certain travel restrictions for all Palestinians. It is my understanding that there are Palestinians, Christian and non-Christian who can travel in approved areas if they have proper ID.
In the future, don’t try and put words in my mouth like your last sentence. You say they are our brothers and sisters. You also say that religious people who live sinful sexual lifestyles are also our brothers and sisters. Therefore, I don’t believe you just because you say it. I will now respond to your 1:09pm comments. I gave you ample scripture as to the land area God deeded to His people of promise. Israel, because of their disobedience, never occupied all of it in accordance with God’s plan.
Abraham pleaded with God to make Ishmael the son of promise. God said no as noted in the following scripture: Genesis 15:15-2215And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. 17Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? 18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. 22And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham. I have tried to be up front with you on all my comments, but I conclude the truth in the Bible is not acceptable many times.Les, you say in your nov 15 6:31pm comments you are going to visit the churches in Palestine. Upon your return, I would appreciate you contacting me on your findings.
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Dale, do you have reading problems? Comprehension problems? Problems understanding?
I gave you my report of my trip. My trip was May 2010. I clearly stated in the past, not the future. I invited you to join the 2012 group. You don't believe those who have been there. I wrote that you do not have integrity with me until you visit the area yourself.
How much better if you would spread the word of Jesus who fulfilled the law and the prophets and who said, "Love your enemies". "Love one another as I have loved you". "Be perfect as I am perfect."
God said, "Be holy for I am holy."
Again, what label should we give you? You have labels for all who disagree with you.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to point to only a couple of Jesus' many commands. The two greatest commandments were given to us. And they did not include the promise to Abraham.
Like JPR said many months ago, we are all wasting our time on someone so set in his ways that it affects his reading and comprehension.
I know these are strong words, but Jesus' words were/are everlasting. I prefer to live in Jesus, everlasting heaven than in the political state of Israel that was established in 1948 and never will be everlasting. Nothing on earth is everlasting.
Think a little: if there will be a new Jerusalem, the old is gone--forever/everlasting.
Just another point, you wrote of free travel if they have the right ID. That is as hard to get for some as it is for some Hispanics to get a legal papers in the USA. In fact, some Palestinians are forbidden to enter some Jewish controlled land. I talked to one, and his wife, and heard about many others first hand.
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One thing I learned in Palestine/Israel was that the OT focuses and centers on land and possessions from the creation through Egypt, Exodus, Promised Land, kings, enemies, tribes, Job 42:12-15, Babylon, and the last verse of Malachi, as well as God and his actions.
The NT focuses and centers on Christ from his birth through his teachings, miracles and parables, resurrection, his followers, and the Holy Spirit to the last verse of the Bible. All the books of the NT focus on related aspects.
Praise God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit that the followers of Christ today and for everlasting have the same opportunity, challenge, and calling.
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I have removed a comment entirely. Please remember that personal attacks are prohibited. Our policy states that "the purpose of comments is to engage in dialogue."
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Les,
You and others reveal a very narrow view of the OT. Are you suggesting that we discard the OT and utilize only the NT? If you want to ignore the OT, that is your privilege but all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness. In the OT, there are 38 prophecies concerning the coming Messiah. There are 66 books of which 39 are in the OT. There are 1129 chapters of which 929 are in the OT. The NT is in the OT concealed and the OT is in the NT revealed. Jesus said, “Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill”. There are other times He referred to the OT. The Abrahamic Covenant remains in effect until God declares time shall be no more.
Yes the old Jerusalem will be completely destroyed as we read in 2Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” That is level 10 global warming. In succeeding verses, we read there will be new heavens and a new earth. That will be glorious. And the only thing there that is made by man are the scars on the hands of Jesus.
The two greatest commandments by Jesus did not nullify the 10 commandments. The two summarized the 10. Further, the two commandments you referred to also did not nullify the everlasting Covenant Promises God made to Abraham.
I will now return to the MWR article.Since I will not be going to with you to visit the Palestinians, I would hope you would take your Bible with you and show those people the scriptures in the OT that I have shared above. Scriptures that show the land possessed by Israel has been deeded to them by God. Also show them that the land they the Palestinians are dwelling is also deeded to Israel by God. I don’t think the Palestinian problem would exist if all the Arab people would treat Israel as rightful owners of Israeli land that was deeded to them by God.
Thank you for this moment of teaching opportunity.
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Dale, help me understand.
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On the day that God made a covenant with Abram, as recorded in Genesis 15:18-21, God said he was giving Abram’s descendants the land from the Nile to the Euphrates. Does this mean that God wants the state of Israel to govern all of that land? Does it mean that the state of Israel disobeyed God when it made piece with Egypt and returned the Sinai? Does it mean we should encourage the state of Israel to acquire the lands currently governed by Jordan and Iraq?
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Who are the descendants of Abram included in the covenant?
(a) Are the offspring of those disobedient Hebrews who took wives from among the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, and the Jebusites included?
(b) Are the offspring of the ten tribes of ancient Israel included, those taken captive by the Assyrian army and scattered across the Middle East?
(c) Are the offspring of the Samaritan women that Jesus met at the well included – the woman with five husbands who was living with a man not her husband?
(d) Are the offspring of the Jews scattered across Europe and the Middle East by the Romans after their destruction of Jerusalem included?
(e) Are the offspring of apostate Jews – such those who embraced the idolatry of Communism – included?
(f) Are the offspring of Jews who married Christians, and who now join us in following Jesus the Nazarene included? I assume they might be. But must they live under the political control of the state of Israel in order to qualify? What if they citizenship is in Jordan, or in Egypt, or in Iraq? Or what if their citizenship is Palestinian? Do they need to give their allegiance to the state ofIsrael first and then they enter God's covenant?
In short, I understand from the text you quoted (Genesis 17: 15-22) that God told Abraham that the covenant would be with the descendants of Isaac, not the descendants of Ishmael. I’m asking a practical question: how do we tell the difference?
Perhaps we can ask Bibi Netanyahu and he will tell us. Is that how we should do it?
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Berry, all the people in the lineage of Jesus were descendants of Isaac with certain exceptions such as Rahab and Ruth both, who by faith, chose to leave their heathen culture and identify with the God’s people of promise.
Since 1948, Israel has had 13 military skirmishes with neighboring countries. Further, it is not the descendants of Isaac who are persecuting the Christians in heavily Muslim populated countries? This should answer your question in the next to the last paragraph of your comments.
Some of your other questions I have already addressed with scripture.
In Revelations 7, God reveals to John that 144,000 were sealed, all of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel, not Ishmael. If I knew how the 12,000 would be identified by God for each tribe, perhaps I could answer your other questions.
Thank you Berry for this teaching moment.
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I found the following comment by Les ofensive and demeaning. Why was it not removed?
"Dale, do you have reading problems? Comprehension problems? Problems understanding"
I guess pro palestinian writers are exempt from censorship.
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Rikke, I too had the same thought when I saw your comment had been removed. I did not know I had some of these problems until Les presented them to me. Perhaps I have a genetic weakness or am getting an early start on dementia. It helps to have a sense of humor with some of these individuals who respond with critical comments by considering the source and let it pass.
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Rikki, sorry for the misspelling of your name.
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Dale, I want to share something with you.
I have a friend who is an Egyptian Presbyterian. He told me that the interpretation that you are pushing has caused many Middle Eastern Christians to stop reading the Old Testament. They feel alienated by the type of interpretation you are talking about.
Perhaps it is time we think about the implications and ramifications of what weare saying. Can it really be an inspired interpretation, a reading lead by the Spirit, if it causes our brothers and sisters to stop reading 2/3 of the Scripture, if it yeilds the works of the flesh and not the fruits of the Spirit (see Galatians 5)?
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Dale, in response to your 2:28 comment earlier today.
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So Jesus's lineage includes descendents of Ishmael? Wow! And descendants of Ishmael can be part of the covenant of God if they convert to Judiasm! So what if descendants of Ishmael convert to become followers of Jesus, like the Palestinaians who wrote the document to which Ervin Stutzman responded? Then through Christ they have become part of the covenant too, right? And the land is theirs?
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So descendants of Ishmael persecute Christians but descendants of Isaac do not? A member of my congregation serves in Israel as a missionary with the MC USA Mission Network. He reports persecution of Christians by Jews. Are those Jews who do that then really descendants of Ishmael, and not of Isaac?
Obviously, my point is that when we consider the thousands of years since Abram, and all the mixing and matching and exiling and returning of the various Semitic peoples, it is pointless to try and distinguish the descendants of Isaac from the descendants of Ishmael.
Christian Zionism says, "Let the ruling political party of the state of Israel decide who is in and who is out of God's covenant with Abram."
I believe in the covenant as much as you do, Dale, but the Zionist way of applying it turns what was meant to be a blessing into a curse.
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Justin, you have a good question and here is my answer. Your question is outside of the Palestinian situation and I will address it as such.
Through the Jews, the Messiah is promised for all mankind.
John 1:11&12 says, “He came unto his own (the Jews) but his own received him not, but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, as many as believe on his name, which were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Gal 3:6-9 6)Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7)Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8)And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9)So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
In Acts 8 we read of the Ethiopian eunuch that was saved by Philipp and baptized.
Justin, you, I, all Arabs, Hindus, Buddhists are Gentiles or non-Jews. We Gentiles, through faith in Jesus our Saviour, are born into the family of God for all eternity. We are not told whether the repentant thief on the cross was a Jew or Gentile. All we know is that based on his confession of faith, Jesus promised him that “today you will be with me in Paradise”. At the foot of the cross, the ground is level.
Please write the Egyptian Christians that they should read the OT in light of the NT verses above. Jesus, our Saviour, came through the Covenant Promise and we Gentiles are grafted in.
If you still have questions on this, I will do my best to answer them.
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Berry, your bullet # 1 is answered in my response to Justin.
Regarding your bullet #2, I would need to have more details about this. What precisely is the Mennonite Missionary doing in Israel that he is being persecuted? Iran, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Egypt, are neighboring countries to Israel. Does MC USA Mission Network have a missionary in each of those countries doing the same thing as the MC USA missionary in Israel?
Regarding your next paragraph, I only know that God says I will bless those who bless my people and I will curse those who curse my people. Further, I know what the pre-incarnate Christ told Ishmael’s mother before he was born. I’m sure God can sort it all out in his sovereign time and wisdom.
It was Haman, in the book of Esther, who hated the Jews and planned their destruction. Instead, God used a young Jewish woman to cause Haman, the Jew hater, to hang from the gallows he had built for Mordecai and the Jews were saved. Hitler too wanted the Jews destroyed and he ended up destroying himself. Today, there is growing disrespect and criticism of Israel by the religious community and downright hatred by others such as Ahmadinejad. These are still God’s chosen people from a covenant perspective. Jews continue to return to the land that has been reserved by God for them.
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Thanks Dale for your response. I have decided not to bother with MWR anymore as there is no justice here. It seems to be nothing more than a front for rabid pro palestinian propaganda.I think I will be sticking to Camera.org from now on.
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Dale, we agree then. At the foot of the cross the ground is level. All who come to Jesus - Palestinians included - are grafted into the covenant of God.
Now, back to the appeal the Palestinian Christians have made to us, the one to which Ervin Stutzman has replied.
Our Palestinian brothers and sisters have called the occupation of their lands "a sin". And they have asked us to examine our theology and "not to offer a theological cover-up for the injustice we suffer." Stutzman has asked that we "re-examine what the Bible says about the land of Israel and engage in conversation with each other about the theology of Christian Zionism and its impact on Christian brothers and sisters in the region."
Here's the problem: while all Christians say the ground is level at the foot of the cross, some also say the ground between the Nile and the Euphrates rivers (which God gave Abram and his descendants) is not level. It belongs to whomever Israeli politicians say it belongs to.
This is the great inconsistency that causes people to doubt the sincerity of our witness to Jesus Christ and brings such suffering to our brothers and sisters in Palestine.
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bdf, right on.
It boils down to whether we call the Israelis our brothers and sisters and the Palestinians our brothers or sisters.
Did Jesus come to break down the barriers between "the two"? Eph. 2:11-22.
Do we have a right to raise the barriers again? I write what some have concluded is a biased Palestinian view. What I write is because the Israeli view is published time and time again, and few are willing to listen to the Palestinian balance. JPR stated it very well some comments back. There is not space in these comments to write a balanced book. One person asked me, "Are you willing to consider the Israeli view?" Yes, of course. I have heard it, read it, reviewed it, and seen it frequently in and with prayer. What I should have asked that person, "Are you willing to consider the Palestinian plight? Have you heard it, read it, reviewed it, and seen it frequently in and with prayer?"
I personally know persons who served under Mennonite ministries since 1948 in Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, Palestine, Iran, Iraq and Syria, if my memory is correct. Some of them have died. Some are retired, and some are still serving and living in these countries. Some of them are members of our congregation.
We need to take Eph. 2:11-21 as seriously as it is written.
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Amen, Les! Amen!
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Another helpful way to think about this, if not quite "Biblical", is the Parable of the Three Rings, which first appeared in Nathan the Wise, a play Gotthold Lessing wrote in 1779.
Nathan, a Jew, is brought before the throne of Saladin, a Muslim. Saladin asks Nathan which religion, Christianity, Judaism, or Islam is most pleasing to God.
Nathan thinks about the question, and realizes that if he is in a fix. If Nathan says that Judaism is the correct path, then he runs the risk of alienating Saladin, which would surely mean death. If, on the other hand, Nathan says that Islam is correct, then he discredits his own faith as a Jew. The third option of Christianity, Nathan realizes, would only discredit himself and Saladin. So he answers with the Parable of the Three Rings:
Once there was a dynasty in which the King was permitted to choose his heir from among his sons, giving the one he favored most a Ring that contained all the power of his kingdom.
The Ring was passed down from generation to generation until one king had three sons that he loved equally, and the three sons were all devoted to their father. Try as the king might, he could not bring himself to choose a favorite. Making matters worse, at one time or another, he promised each of his children the Ring.
Completely in a bind, the king sent for his finest goldsmith and gave him instructions to take the Ring and make two exact replicas of it. The goldsmith's work was so superb that even the finest jewelers of the kingdom could not distinguish between the three rings, and when the old king died, each son found he had the Ring.
Soon, a quarrel broke out among the three sons, since each had a ring, but only one could have the Ring, and thus the inheritance of the kingdom. The three called in a judge, and the judge jewelers and goldsmiths. The original goldsmith had died some time ago, and no one could distinguish which ring was the Ring. So the judge advised that the three rule the kingdom, living to do their father's memory credit, and thereby seek to prove which ring was authentic. Generations passed, and still nobody could distinguish between the rings, though each descendent viewed found his ring authentic.
Nathan concluded his parable by asking Saladin if he would like to decide which ring was the real one. Saladin responded simply by extending the hand of friendship to Nathan, whom he now viewed with great respect.
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Thanks, JPR, a very thought provoking parable. Of course Jesus spoke in parables and at times the hearers did not know how to answer. They would incriminate themselves if they answered either way.
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Berry, have you decided you do not want to answer my questions to your bullet #2?
We Gentiles are not grafted into the everlasting covenant God made with Abraham regarding land and descendents. The grafting of believers pertains to the third promise that through Jesus, a Jew, his sinless life, death, resurrection and ascension into Heaven we gentiles can also become members of the family of God. In the OT, there were two Gentile women (Rahab & Ruth) who, under unusual circumstances were grafted, through faith, into the chosen people of God. You are attempting to bundle the grafting teaching into the blessing of land and descendants of the covenant which is wrong. Palestinian people living outside Israel have no more legal right to the land now occupied by the nation of Israel than you and I. Israel is the only nation in the world that can say our land is deeded to us by God. To teach otherwise is showing disdain for God and his Word.
Les, Eph 2:11-21 is written by Paul to the believers in Ephesus. That portion of scripture pertains to the unity of all believers and has nothing to do with the demands by Palestinian people having any legal or Biblical right to land occupied by Israel. Ervin Stutzman and MC USA can debate this forever but it does not change the everlasting promise made by God to Abraham.
We call all people our brothers and sisters who come to saving faith in Jesus. It was Jesus who said, “No one comes to the Father except through me.” That has nothing to do with the nation status of Israel and this discussion.
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Sorry to see your response, Dale. I thought we were in agreement, but we are not. You continue to pretend you can identity those inside and those outside the covenant God made with Abraham. How? You ask the politicians in Israel.
Your entire approach separates the work of God in Abraham from the work of God in Jesus the Nazarene. It twists a part of the glorious salvation of our LORD into an idol that can be manipulated to suit the whims of power-seeking politicians.
Thus, you glibbly call the Palestinians "Gentiles" and deny them the right to live on the lands their ancestors have owned for centuries, all because the Israeli politicians say so.
In fact, it is highly likely that all the ancient peoples of that region are descendants in one degree or another of Isaac AND Ishmael.
Why have you embraced a theology that excludes from God's covenant the children of the Samaritan woman at the well? That expells the descendants of all those Jews who married women from other nations? That exiles all those of mixed lineage whose ancestors were carried captive out of Israel to a place where the law of Moses was no longer observed? That is where your theology takes you, Dale.
Christian Zionism is heresy; it turns the blessing of God's promise to Abraham into a curse.
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Berry,
That is perhaps the most damningly (and I mean that in the theological sense) accurate critique of Zionism! I know we have had out significant differences in the recent past, but I completely agree with your post. I would push it farther that salvation has become more than an idol, it has become a tool of oppression and political power, rather than of liberation and the glorification of God.
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Berry, This is my third request for answers to your bullet #2 of Nov 18 at 4:28 p.m.) May I suggest you slow down and share your answer before you go down other bunny trails.
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Dale, You may as well give up. These people who are your antagonist are of like-minded theological and political ideation. They are a mutual admiration group who are engaging in mutual admiration and self-praise which I see as akin to mutual masturbation. They won’t stop ganging up on opposition until they squeeze people out of forums like these article postings. They are simply theological and political bullies who have the blessing of the editor or so it would seem. Ignore them and let them pleasure each other while we live in peace. They attack Israel and its community, but the moderator who removed my post, hypocritically allows them to attack the people of Israel.
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Rikki, I also had one of my posts removed because he erroneously attached a wrong interpretation to what I said and I was unable to convince him otherwise. What I said was “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck”. In no way was I suggesting the person was a duck, but was trying to point out that people reveal themselves by what they do and what they say.
Trying as they are, I am not intimidated or insulted with their critical comments. I am blessed to be in a Bible believing, Bible preaching church and surrounded by people who have deep respect and vast knowledge of the Bible.
I have been acquainted with an individual for many years who was born Mennonite, went to Goshen College and graduated from Eastern Mennonite College. He and his wife are no longer Mennonite. Because Mennonite theology changes as culture changes, he has this to say, “Mennonites worship regularly at three altars; the altar of Anabaptism, the altar of Pacifism and the altar of Horizontal Relationships”. That has nothing to do with the article, but I submit it while I wait for a response for Berry.
Hang in there Rikki, perhaps if enough people respond with truth, we may see change from error to truth in MWR. I’m not holding my breath.
Please note I got my name spelled correctly this time.
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To Rikki and other online readers. The following has some humor. In no way does it suggest that the people providing these critical comments to me are pigs but it is a humorous principle that I apply in various situations: “Never try and teach a pig how to sing, it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.” I hope this does not get removed or offend anyone. Some of my critics may apply this to me. The Bible has something similar to say.
Still waiting Berry. Perhaps I should conclude you really are unable to respond to my request.
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Well Dale, no offense intended, but "Never try and wrestle (or argue) with a swine. You both get muddy, and the swine likes it."
I think Berry clearly answered your question, Dale, if perhaps not the same answer you were expecting. Give it a rest.
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Also interesting, Dale. You take offense to words such as "damn" but not to "mutual masturbation." I guess what really matters is if the person in question agrees with you.
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JPR, Here is my request to Berry. "Regarding your bullet #2, I would need to have more details about this. What precisely is the Mennonite Missionary doing in Israel that he is being persecuted? Iran, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Egypt, are neighboring countries to Israel. Does MC USA Mission Network have a missionary in each of those countries doing the same thing as the MC USA missionary in Israel?
I have looked and I was unable to locate anything. On what date did he respond in your opinion? If he did respond, I would have expected him to give me a reference date.
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Hi Dale, I agree, though it seems to me that some anabaptists especially those of Les' ilk, are worshipping at the altar of their politcs and theology. In other words you don't know the mind of God unhless you agree with me. (watch this get deleted by the editor),I am so sick and tired of these people who talk about justice and then deny others that very same justice because their theology dosen't fit. If we look at anabaptism and its history it is just the same old stupid story - conform or we will hound you out of our presence!!!!!!!!!!!!No wonder so many leave conferences!
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